First I would like to apologize for my overreaction to your original post Paranoid Jews. I had just spent six months dealing with Nazis, Neo-Nazis, KKK, Aryan Nations, White Aryan Resistance, and Christian Identity types on the Internet. I mistook you for one Francis A. Boyle, a person sometimes quoted by the above groups.
So you understand where I'm coming from, let me inform you that I am an artiest with little tolerance for religion. I was raised Jewish Orthodox among Hasidic neighbors. My father graduated from Mathausen, and my mother from the big "A". I am now and have always been a Leftist. I was active during the Vietnam era. I went to live on a Kibbutz in Israel. I was NOT a Zionist then, nor am I now. I never served in the Israeli military despite living there for a total of seven years ( some non- consecutive ). I did carry weapons as a kind of militiaman during the Yom Kippur war in 1973. Fortunately I never had to kill anybody, but I would have. I left Israel because I didn't want to live in a militaristic society.
After returning to the US I went to live on a rural commune for five years. I have actually lived what some here theorize about.
I am a totally identified Jew. That means that it's more important for me to be a Jew than a Leftist. This puts me in a maddeningly unique position. I find myself in contention with everyone. But it is stimulating and educational.
Frances Bolton (PHI) wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 Nurev at Kreative.net wrote:
> > But, I would suggest that Israel itself will be the cause of future
> persecutions of Jews in the diaspora. That includes the USA.
> > And, let's not forget that as recently as five years ago there was a
> full fledged pogrom in Crown Heights Brooklyn ironically perpetrated by
> I would love to see you make that *argument* about Israel being the cause
> of future Jewish persecution.
The greatest threat to American Jews is Israel, and the greatest threat to Israel's Jews, are their American bourgeois brothers and sisters who think that support for the Oslo Plan is good for Israel OR the Palestinians. In recent history, American Jews have enjoyed the privilege of being almost white. That, in conjunction with an affinity for, and no aversion to capitalism, has put us in an enviable position ( as a group ) in this society. This has often been an historical impetus towards initiating active violent Jew hatred. Of course other circumstances need to be right too. Those circumstances exist either in quiescence or activity in all societies outside of the Jewish State. They are: religious hatred, religious competition, economic competition, envy, class hatred, xenophobia, and plain old racism. All the usual suspects. Let me assure you that there is a sizeable core group of rabid Jew haters in this country. These numbers tend to wax and wane with the effects of the economy on the personal fortunes of the general population. For the moment, the perception is that most people are doing OK. Those that are not doing OK are too busy working two or three shitty jobs to be concerned about other things. Those who have no jobs are working on their skills and self esteem, or simply starving.
Israel- The Oslo Peace process is a sham perpetrated upon the people of the Mid East by people who would like to develop " stability " in that part of the world to make it safe for foreign investors, as well as facilitating local trade. A main benefit would be to remove the threat of periodic war to that area's oil exploitation by the European and Japanese economies. This is a plan to benefit the elites of the countries involved. For everyone else, the benefit would be peace. Yeah right! The only thing standing in the way of promised riches for the various elites, was the "Palestinian Problem." The American and European elites got the Israeli, Jordanian, Saudi, and Egyptian elites to resuscitate the thoroughly beaten and discredited Palestinian elites led by Arafat to agree to the establishment of a Bantustanlike pseudo-state. Great plan, just a few teeny weeny little problems to solve.
Teeny problem 1: Who will control the water under the West Bank. 2: The local ecology absolutely will not support further increases in
population desired by both parties. 3: Both sides have religious fanatics incapable of compromise on certain
issues, and willing to kill and die for their beliefs. 4: A significant number of Israelis will simply not trade buffer
territories for the false security of a piece of paper. 5: A significant number of Palestinians will not be satisfied with a token
state, while they really want their old territory back. 6: The Jews will not give up sovereignty over Jerusalem.
The "peace plan" was absurd wishful thinking based on greed. The results are what we have today. This deal is dead. If in 1999 there is no signed agreement, Arafat will declare a state. From that point on the Palestinians will face the possibility of extinction, and Jews will have the dubious honor of being compared to the Germans, the Russians, and the Americans in the bloody annals of historical genocide. And this is not even the worst case scenario. The worst case would be if the other Arab states go to war over Palestine. Contrary to popular belief, Israel does not have the overwhelming military power that it used to if you don't count it's nuclear capability. Which means that it can lose a conventional war. If Israel finds itself losing as it did in 1973, there should be no doubt in anyones mind that rather than face their own inevitable annihilation, they will nuke their enemies. Then Frances, if these scenarios do in fact occur, what do you suppose would be the reactions towards Jews living in the Arab countries, or Russia, or Europe, or even the United States? How would majority populations react to their Jews when their economies grind to a halt because they can't get oil from the Middle East?
> Because, as your comment now stands, this
> sounds like typical ADL fundraising propaganda.
The only thing I like about the ADL is that the Neo-Nazis fear them.
> Or does being asked about
> Israel's occupation of Palestinian land count as persecution?
It depends on what you consider to be Palestinian land. Do you consider the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to be occupying Palestinian land?
> As for the Brooklyn "pogrom," you've got to be kidding. The incident was
> a result of not just the Black child being killed by the Hasidic driver,
> but the Hasidic community response to the child's death as well.
Oh you are so full of shit! Whatever their " attitude," nothing justified the racist reaction to those Jews. If this happened in some Southern town where the driver was a black man and the child was white, I'll bet you wouldn't be making excuses for the lynching of an unrelated black bystander.
> As for the
> death of Yankel Rosenbaum, well, it was unfortunate, but it doesn't
> qualify for a pogrom.
Yes how unfortunate.
> Pogroms were marked by extreme violence towards a
> Jewish community with the complicity, or at least silence, of the local
Not only was this a pogrom, it was a textbook example of one. The Hasidim were trapped in their homes for three days I believe. Several, ( maybe many ) were beaten by roving bands of young Blacks while trying to get home. A pogrom is not defined by the actions of the authorities, but the actions of the mob. I don't think that there is any doubt what the mob was up to.
> Every politician in NY was in Crown Heights, sucking up to
> the Hasidim and promising to bring Rosenbaum's killers to justice.
And just what exactly is wrong with that???
> surprised you'd be interested in the Hasidic community. The Hasidim, after
> all, are anti-Zionist.
This is simply incorrect. There are no longer any Hasidic sects which are anti-Zionist. In any case, the Lubavitchers, the sect involved here are not anti- Zionist.
> I've never understood all those assimilated Jews
> who are supporters of and apologists for the Hasidic communities.
I don't know any assimilated Jews who give a damn about Hasidim. I personally don't care to go to a Marilyn Manson concert with them, but they are my brothers and sisters. Furthermore, it was they, and not people like you who made any effort whatsoever to approach Roosevelt with the request that he intervene in the destruction of my family in Europe.
> like growing up as a Unitiarian and feeling like you have to support the
> Promise Keepers or Phyllis Schafly. The Hasidim are right-wing,
> repressive, homophobic, sexist fundamentalists; there is nothing romantic
> or quaint about them. Better that they *all* assimilated.
I see. Multiculturalism applies to everyone else but them.
> Frances Bolton, Jew.
Jew? Who are you kidding!?