>>> "Frances Bolton (PHI)" <fbolton at chuma.cas.usf.edu> 11/18 11:14 AM >>>
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S. Frances Bolton Department of Philosophy, CPR 107 phone: 813.974.2447 University of South Florida fax: 813.974.5914 4202 East Fowler Avenue fbolton at chuma.cas.usf.edu Tampa, FL 33605 ********************************************************************** "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Charles Brown wrote:
>
> Charles: Au contraire , ma soeur, to me
> the number one liberation struggle for
> today is women's liberation. When I go
> on the talk radio, I go on as a Black
> feminist mainly. Most of my work today
> is as a Black feminist. My main
OK, let me get this straight. If I am not of native american ancestery, I cannot understand the importance or validity of indigenous struggle, and cannot question the work of those engaged in that struggle. ______ Charles: Well, no you don't exactly have what I said straight. I mean if you are not native american and are white , a member of the group oppressing Indians and Black people, it is arrogant and maybe even racist to claim that a Black Indian who mentions they are at least 1/16 Indian does not tell you anything about the intimacy of their relationship to the liberation struggle of Indians.
If you want me to send you the posts I will. What I say above is much closer to what I said than what you say above. I certainly didn't say whites can't understand the importance or validity of indigenous struggle or question the work. Where is that ?
I was indirectly indicating to someone else that I was in coordinated Black and Indian struggles and you questioned whether I had been raised Indian with the implication,given the context that I was only concerned with Black struggle and not Indian struggle. I guess. Why did you question whether I had been raised Indian ? What did that have to do with what the other person and I were discussing ?
________
Yet, at the same time, you, unless your name and persona are highly misleading, are a straight man. You pointed out that this is a racist white society. it is also a patriarchal, misogynist society, and you, Charles, like it or not, are part of the oppressor class. Yet somehow, simply because you've read and are a personal acquaintance of Angela Davis (fallacy: appeal to authority) that gives you the right to call yourself a Black feminist. ________
Charles: Right. This is a thread where I was saying that white peope should BECOME Black. Someone criticized me for that and you seemed to agree with the criticism. So, already I would be consistent in my argumentation to say one oppressor class (men) should "become" women. Only I didn't say that,but that I am a Black feminist, not quite as big a step. The analogy would be a white person who is an anti-racist or for Black liberation. There are many whites like that. So, I don't see any inconsistency in my claim to be a male feminist. Anyway, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, Women's liberation is good for men. It is in men's self-interest to be feminists.
I can say without any problem that I am a member of an oppressor class, men. That doesn't carry the argument for you. The question is how do I use my dominant status to undermine that dominant status. What I do is be a feminist activist. Nothing more I can do.
I didn't say acquaintance with A. Davis was the basis for my feminism. It is studying her thinking and actions.
____________
I've read Ward Churchill and Annette Jaimes, is that enough for me to call myself Native American? Oh, I thought not. To take on the identities of others is a male game. ________
Charles: You are conflating "feminist" and "woman". I didn't say I was a woman. An anti-racist doesn't have to be a member of an oppressed race, can even be a member of an oppressing race, white.
An anti- male chauvinist doesn't have to be a women. Get it ?
__________
Oh, please. This claim of Black feminism is the moost highly absurd thing I've read since...well, since the post in which you accused me of being an arrogant racist. Is it not arrogant for you to presume to understand women's oppression? _________
Charles: See above. I didn't say I was a Black woman.
For example, John Brown was white, but he was an historic anti-racist. It is possible for a white to be anti-racist. Similarly it is not absurd for a man to be a feminist. Jill Nelson told me she was glad to meet a male feminist. She didn't think it was absurd.
I didn't claim to understand women's oppression, in the sense that I have suffered it. I believe women's claims of suffering and ACT against it. That's what I claimed.
And I found it unspeakably patronizing for you to refer to Snitgrrl as "Ma soeur." Check the beam in your own eye, before looking at the splinter in the eyes of others. _______
Charles: You would have to posture as more injured than me. Now this is a true "Oppressedor than thou" comment. "My sister" as patronizing. I don't think so. There are much more equal addresses than brother and sister. To patronizing I would have had to call her my daughter.
You can't silence my criticism of racism by trying to jump around illogically as above. Anyway, you criticized "the beam in my eye first. You claimed my claim to Indian heritage was somehow lacking. I merely responded to your criticism with criticism. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
________
Hypocrisy, thy name is Charles Brown.
________
Charles: Nothing hypocritical about my posts here. Just as whites can be anti-racists ( I had even gone further and said they could become Black) , men can be feminists. Sounds pretty consistent to me.
QED
CB