Well, I'm now overquota again, but...
I'm not sure what the big whoop is about the pilgrims versus the puritans, at least in Massachusetts. So, the pilgrims landed at Plymouth in 1620 and the Puritans at Boston in 1630. They were both Calvinists weren't they? I believe that Baptists were persecuted in Massachusetts along with pretty much everybody else. Heck, they did not allow Christmas to be celebrated there until well into the 1800s.
When Jefferson proposed the Statute of religious freedom in Virginia, where the Church of England had long been "established," it was largely to protect German-speaking Baptists.
I would fully agree regarding the issue of church hierarchy and traditional positions within the Protestant churches vis a vis political/social issues. Thus the Episcopalians and the Lutherans tended to be very hierarchical and more pro-upper class. The Baptists were totally into local congregational control. The Presbyterians and Methodists tended to be somewhat intermediate, although the Methodists have bishops ruling over who will be the minister while the Presbyterians give the congregation ultimate control. In general, the Calvinists tended to be in the middle between the aristocratic hierarchical Episcopalians and the radical levelling Baptists.
Indeed this issue shows up quite clearly what has happened with the Southern Baptists in the US. They now have their national organization handing down all kinds of theological edicts about the inerrancy of the Bible and are running around purging faculty from their colleges and universities who don't toe the line. More, generally, as the largest Protestant denomination in the US, I think they have a streak of desiring to tell everybody else what to do. Certainly some of their leaders such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have played such a line. Barkley Rosser -----Original Message----- From: Tom Lehman <uswa12 at Lorainccc.edu> To: lbo-talk at lists.panix.com <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 3:54 PM Subject: Re: death list
>Barkley, I'd say the Pilgrims more than the Puritans. Big difference you
>know! Also, if I were going to attempt any type of political-economic
>analysis, I'd look to the form of church government pursued by the various
>churches. Whether it was bottom up or top down. This more than anything
>else tells the tale of American democracy and progress.
>
>Tom
>
>"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
>
>> John,
>> The traditional class hierarchy of churches
>> in the US South is Episcopalians (Church of England),
>> Presbyterians (Scots), Methodists (Low Church of
>> England), and then the Baptists. Only the Presbyterians
>> of that bunch traditionally Calvinists. Oh yeah, Lutherans
>> (Germans) are in there with the Methodists. The Baptists
>> were originally out of Germany and in the US have gone
>> very far away from their roots. I note that the Amish and
>> Mennonites are also of the Anabaptist lineage, and all
>> were persecuted vigorously by the Calvinists in Europe.
>> In Europe the Baptists were social radicals.
>> The United Church of Christ is Calvinist but more
>> upper class and identified with the northern based
>> Congregationalists, the descendants of the Puritans.
>> BTW, the Methodists are the church whose distribution
>> of membership most closely resembles the overall distribution
>> of the population in the US. Can't get any more middle
>> class than that.
>> Barkley Rosser
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John K. Taber <jktaber at dhc.net>
>> To: 'lbo_talk' <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com>
>> Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 9:49 PM
>> Subject: RE: death list
>>
>> >
>> >"David Jennings [MSAI] said:
>> ><
>> >On Sun, 26 Sep 1999, John K. Taber wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Calvinism cuts both ways.
>> >>
>> >>Southern Protestants seem to take Calvin's predestination to mean
>> >>that they are assured of God's grace. They believe that as born
>> >>again Christians they are guaranteed salvation regardless of
>> >>what they do.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I don't know where you're getting this. The most popular churches in
>> >the
>> >Southern US are not Calvinist. Also, those churches place a strong
>> >emphasis on the connection between professions of faith and salvation.
>> >>
>> >
>> >It wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken on this list.
>> >
>> >I thought the Baptists were descendents of Calvinism. You're saying
>> >they're not? So, their belief in personal salvation because of
>> >being born again isn't grace but profession of faith? I'll be
>> >darned. I learn something on this list almost every day.
>> >
>> >Also, I thought that in the South the Southern Methodists are the
>> >church of the upper class, while Southern Baptist and Church of
>> >Christ were middle and working class.
>> >
>> >So, does grace have anything to do with Southern Baptists and
>> >Church of Christ?
>> >
>> >
>
>