----- Original Message ----- From: Peter K. <peterk at enteract.com> To: <lbo-talk at lists.panix.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:01 AM Subject: Re: Another CIA Revelation
> Tothe:
> >> I know this annoys the hell out of people, but Germany and Japan and
Italy
> >> - Afghanistan - were "democratized with bombs."
> >
> > Depends what you mean by "democratized." What the US and Britain did
> >following the war was to reinstitution the traditional fascists order
right
> >back into power. This was done by undermining and basically destroying
the
> >left based Resistance movement which was worker and peasant based. The US
> >had no beef with fascism as long as it wasn't conflicting with US
interests.
> >That's why the US supported Hitler and Mussolini when they came to power.
> >There are class aspects of WWII which are mostly ignored in the
mainstream
> >for obvious reasons....they tell the wrong story. Europe in general was
ripe
> >for revolution prior to WWII and afterwards because the business
community,
> >by and large, sided with fascism...Its in their bones, sort of speak.
Same
> >story in Greece....
>
>
> I agree with what you're saying and fascism and dictatorship held on in
Greece and Spain and
> Portugal, but eventually they "democratized."
Well again it depends what you mean by the word. There is more to democracy than just voting
The US supported Franco in Spain, just as they supported Hitler and Mussolini. The problem only arises when western 'interests" are threatened. So the US had no problem undermining and destroying the resistance in Europe once the war was over and making sure that the traditional social/economic elite were still in power regardless of their support for fascism. The big giant conglomerates were to be dismantled-like Krupps and IG Farben- and democratized after the war...Never happened. It was in the interest of western capital to leave them as is.
Another line is that the US allowed Western Europe to
> democratize and shared the wealth
Europe has a much greater history of radical labor than does the US...so yes, there had to be some kind of accommodation to the popular ferment in order to sustain capitalism in Europe. So Europe has-at least they did at one time-had a much greater welfare state than the US.
because of the Soviet Union,
This part is basically propaganda in my opinion. No one expected the SU to invade western Europe. It would have been suicide to do so. You have to look at the state of the SU after the war. The country was destroyed by the Nazis. So people like George Kennan, who was a big policy planner in the US at the time and who wrote a very famous paper of the Soviet "threat", made the point that the Soviet challenge was a political one, not military. Of course it is very useful to domestic power in the US to portray the SU as bent on world domination. It justifies the military budget which makes the economy work and lines the pockets of corporate america with tax payer dollars.
I would again recommend someone like Gabriel Kolko on these matters. His take on the SU as being much more a force for stability and conservatism than they ever were for revolution is highly compelling.
but if that was the case, now with
> the SU gone wouldn't it revert to fascism again?
Well what do you mean by fascism?
True there is no Hitler in Germany but there is a certain form of fascism in place in the world today. Capitalism is basically fascist in my opinion. I believe that those that actually do the work should be the primary beneficiaries of their efforts, not owners and investors who do nothing. Well the lion share of the benefits that the economy produces finds its way into the pockets of the minority. The state exists to protect their interests. Yes, we can vote, but until the general population has a meaningful say in matters that effect them, then we can say we only have very limited form of democracy in this-the USA-country. Thats a form of fascism. Just as the SU was fascists, but thats another story I don't really have time for.
I believe in radical labor so I am bit biased on these matters!!
Europe is different because of the labor history I mentioned earlier.
I don't see why Europe would necessarily revert back to Hitler with the SU being gone. Fascism arises for a whole host of reasons. Economic depression and the lack of an organized working class being two possible reasons. If people are unorganized and desperate and only concerned about themselves, then lots of ugly possibilities can happen but they are not written in stone.-Tony
>
> Peter
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