[lbo-talk] retribution [ Dean: hang 'em high!]

Wojtek Sokolowski sokol at jhu.edu
Wed Jun 18 14:04:39 PDT 2003


Jks:

Well, I defend the scum who do this sort of thing as part of my pro bono commitment. I don't actually see the point in dwelling on the awfulness of their acts

WS:

I think that pro bono work, especially of this kind, is for the benefit of the justice system to ascertain its fairnes (skewed by unequal opportunity), whereas the perpetrator benefits form it only coincidentally. That is to say, one would work pro bono even if one knew with certainty that the perp is guilty as charged, but could not afford a competent defence. On the other hand, I doubt many people would work pro bono for a defendant whose guilt was highly questionable, but who was perfectly capable of obtaining competent defence (unless of course tere were other reasons for pro bono work, such as challneging unjust laws, establishing a precedent, etc.)

Jks:

post facto, especially if it leads to the sort of philosophy of merely punitive, mass incarceration in horrible conditions. Most countries in the civilized world attempt to direct their criminal justice policies to deterrence and rehabiliation rather than retribution. I am a moral retributivist of a sort -- I think bad acts should be punished even apart from consequentialist considerations

WS: I would agree with this position.

Jks: -- but the kind of "no sumpathy" snarl Woj emits here leads directly to locking up millions for extended periods, which is counterproductive and expensive.

WS:

It is a non sequitur. I have no sympathy toward people who inflict pain and suffering on others. But that does not mean that I would support incarcerating them. In fact, I think incarceration is a pretty inefficient way of dealing with deviance from social norms, one that is grounded in misguided religious ideas of human nature. The prison was the abandonemnet of "treating the body" (corporeal punishment) and moving toward "treating the mind" through solitude and reflection to reform the human nature (cf. Michel Foucault, _Discipline and Punish_). In reality, the prison is the university of crime as it brings together criminals and facilitates them interacting with one another and exchanging their experience. I think abolishing the prison system would probably reduce crime, at least in a long run.

Jks: Let's think about how to give people who do bad things enough punishment to deter them and others,a nd enough education, rehabilitation, and job opportunities so that they can be socially useful and productive.jks

WS: I agree, except the deterrence part. People commit crimes because it is accepted in their subculture, and they are rewarded for thm by earning respect of their their peers (cf. Jack katz, _Moral Seductions of Crime_). It thus follows that they will not be deterred by the possibility of punishment. One may even expect that the possibility of punishment will encourage crime, because risk taking may earnthe perp higher status among his peers. This works for both, strret and corporate crime. A better approach is to chasnge the culture that rewards crimina behavior.

Wojtek

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