> CB: Right. Let me spell things out in more detail since you are having
> trouble finding coherence in the posts. I was responding to your sarcasm
> with sarcasm. I said WWP had done good work. You responded sarcastically
> that ANSWER is not WWP. I thought I would just cut through that whole
> other redbaiting gambit by saying, hey, since you are going to say in a
> pejorative way that ANSWER is a front group for WWP , I'll grant you
> that and turn it around on you and make it that since ANSWER is doing
> good organizing, presto, low and behold ,that means WWP is doing good
> organizing.
ANSWER nor the WWP are doing anything of value. They can organize a few large protests, but these are the type of events that won't effect any serious social change. The WWP does run a good activist bus service, I'll grant them that.
> As background , the whole accusation of "fronting" against communist
> parties in the US is a damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't bullshit
> move put on them by none other than the redbaiters of the last 80 years
> or so.
Hello? This is how these groups operate. They understand that most people wouldn't buy into their nutty politics if they were upfront about them. Can you imagine people joining the WWP if it was presented as an anti-war coalition?
> First they make it a basis for destroying the Communist Party's
> (or Workers World) work in the unions or anti-racist movement by
> redbaiting them for acting in the name "Communist".
You are talking about ancient history. Red-baiting is mostly dead these days. The capitalists and authorities can't raise the spectre of the communist menace because there are two generations who would have no clue.
>Then when the
> Communists try to do work anyway, and avoid that redbaiting by not
> acting in the name "Communist" , the accusation of "fronting" type
> redbaiting is used. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. You are
> participating in that fine tradition of redbaiting and anti-communism in
> this aspect of your discussion.
Perhaps they should engage in some self-reflection and critical thinking and realzie that they are backing a dead ideology that has been rejected by everybody. If your ideology is so repugnant that you can't be out about it, then perhaps you need to wake up and smell the 21st century.
Perhaps we should send copies of Empire to all embers of the WWP.
> CB: I didn't say you were alone. I said you are wrong. I'm not surprised
> at all at redbaiting and anti-communism. It's rife, including in a lot
> of the Left.
Wow! What a genius of turning around the words here to favor the WWP! The only people that are engaged in red-baiting are a few writers. But criticizing an organization cannot be "red-baiting." The problem is one organization, not all socialists and communists.
> What you aren't admitting is how much "like" and respect
> ANSWER is getting from the giant masses of people who are participating
> in the peace efforts. That's what is new.
This is wishful thinking. I haven't heard any words that show "liking" of ANSWER or respect for the WWP. Once again, you are twisting this debate in order to manufacture the lie that ANSWER isn't disliked. ANSWER is disliked across the activist spectrum.
> And it aggravates many of
> those of you who have been badgering ANSWER and WWP for a long time,
> because by your estimate , they weren't supposed to have this kind of
> success among "mainstream" people. They are supposed to be so sectarian
> that they can only organize very small numbers. The facts of recent
> events contradict your line on ANSWER and WWP. That's the sour grapes
> and envy.
What facts? I have no respect or envy for ANSWER or the WWP. My criticism of them is based on my experience with the assholes who run those groups. I've been an activist long enough to understand how damaging these groups can be to activism if they remain unchallenged.
Sour grapes? LOL. I think the work that my comrades and I have done in the past few years has been far more impressive than what the ANSWER activist bus service has accomplished.
> CB: You aren't the only intra-movement critic. I am one too , and I'm
> critcizing you, because the recent success of ANSWER's work makes
> bullshit out of your line as stated above, at least with respect to the
> current most important work on the Left, stopping the US drive to
> slaughter. And you are the sectarian right here right now in this
> specific struggle, because you are attacking one of the groups that is
> doing very good and successful and non-sectarian work.
I'm proud to be a sectarian. This is about politics and about what will be effective to stop the US war machine, not JUST THIS WAR. I'm interested in being effective enough so we can stop having an anti-war movement. I'm interested in being so effective that I can stop being an activist. It's pretty clear that ANSWER and the WWP are a poison to activism. They are sectarians and they are disruptive to other groups and campaigns.
I'm still trying to figure out how ANSWER has been successful lately? Is the US war machine gone? Are they now taking credit for F15? Please fill me in, because I seem to have missed which demonstration organized by other groups that ANSWER is now taking credit for.
Should we go back again to September 2001, when ANSWER formed and immediately took credit for work that the anti-globalization movement had been doing without them?
> CB: This is the "some of my best friends are communists" defense ? Just
> because you are only criticizing one group doesn't make it not
> redbaiting. For one, the group you are criticizing is the Communist
> group doing the most important and significant work in the peace
> movement right now. The CPUSA is not doing what Workers World is doing.
> Secondly, the specific form of "I was stabbed in the back with a knife
> made in North Korea" is blatantly anti-communist redbaiting of the old
> type where the somebody would use "The Soviet Union" where you are
> using "North Korea" in some tacky attack. "Tool of Moscow", "Stalinist"
> all that jargon is redbaiting. Maybe you just don't know what redbaiting is.
Huh? How can the criticism of one group be red-baiting?
And why can't the WWP stand up like big boys and engage in intra-movement debates? Are they a bunch of pussies? As Nathan noted earlier, him and I get into debates and we don't evade discussion through charges of "red-baiting." Anarchists have been criticized by other activists, on everything from black blocs to tactics. We've had some interesting discussions on those issues. In fact, on 9-11, local anarchists here in DC were supposed to have a meeting to discuss issues like tactics with reps from the AFL-CIO and religious organizations. That meeting was cancelled, but we were engaged in intra-movement debate. When people dissed the black bloc, we didn't cower behind lame defenses like "red-baiting." We went out and talked with our critics.
Do you guys really think that we are scared of this charge? It's not working you know.
>
> People with the movements should have the right to criticize specific
> organizations without some bullshit suggestion that they are engaged in
> red-baiting.
>
> CB: Don't dish it out if you can't take it. If you don't want to be
> criticized, then don't go around criticizing. Calling you a redbaiter
> is criticism of you. People have a right to make criticism of you
> without some phony complaint from you that you've been stabbed in the
> back by a knife from North Korea.
No sense of humor huh? I could have made a joke about the picture of Kim Il Jong that hangs in Brian Becker's New York office.
> CB: Talk about incoherent. What is this supposed to mean ? It's ok for
> the US to attack North Korea , AGAIN ON THE FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY OF THE
> PREVIOUS US IMPERIALIST , COLONIALIST , VICIOUS WAR ? U.S out of Korea
> , hands off Iraq !
ALL POWER TO THE GLORIOUS GRASS-EATING PROLETARIAT OF NORTH KOREA.
> So, what are you engaged in instead of a movement ? A spasm ?
LOL. Talks to the Feds. They have a big file on me.
Chuck0
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