[lbo-talk] Chechen hostages taken by Russian SF

[Wojtek Sokolowski]

Marvin:
> This "demonstration effect", as much as oil, was also the purpose of
> invading Iraq: to "shock and awe" the Arab Middle East into acceptance
of a
> peace settlement on US-Israeli terms by punishing the irredentists,
with
> Saddam and his army made to stand-in as their representative. So far,
the
> effect has seemed the opposite, but collective punishment is also
designed
> to be applied relentlessly, to grind down, exhaust, and break the will
of
> the weaker party to resist -- even as justice-loving world opinion
looks on
> in dismay and bewilderment. Putin, Sharon, and Rumsfeld/Cheney all
subscribe
> to this school. Even liberals like Clinton succumb to this philosophy
as
> they learn to exercise power. It is why employers incur huge costs to
hold
> out in lengthy strikes. Mostly it works, but not always -- and also,
as we
> can see, in societies not reputed to have "collective mindsets".

I think you miss my point entirely.  Collective punishment and a war of
attrition are two very different things, albeit they may look similar
from a distance.  

The war of attrition is simply exhausting your enemy's capacity to wage
a war or resist your own war effort.  It is morally neutral in the sense
that it does not try to distinguish "good" enemies (i.e those who
surrender) from the "bad" ones (i.e. those who keep fighting) and punish
the latter - it simply drains the enemy's resources that can be used in
waging a war.

A collective punishment is "moral" in the sense of making the
aforementioned distinction and to apply punishment accordingly.
However, it differs from Western jurisprudence in that it recognizes
that individual acts and guilt do not reside in individuals, or at least
individuals alone, but in social groups and collectivities that shape
individuals.  An individual alone is but a feral child, an animal if you
will, if it survives at all.  It is society that provides him/her with
all necessary material, emotional and cultural resources that constitute
him as an adult human being.  Believing that individuals can achieve
that on their own is the biggest lie and self-deception of the US way of
thinking.

If collectivity is what ultimately constitutes an adult individual
-his/her mindset, values, goals, acceptable means of their achievements
etc. - it thus follows that collectivity is also responsible, to a
point, for the action individuals take based on these mindsets, values,
expectations etc.  It further follows that such collectivities can be
culpable and thus subject to punishment.  

Again, this is a philosophical speculation on "what if" we abandon the
silly notion of individualism what permeates the US way of thinking.  It
does not advocate or exonerate method of collective punishment.

I would also add that our revulsion to or acceptance of killing others
rests entirely on with whom we want and are willing to empathize.  We
abhor killing of creatures (people or animals) with whom we empathize -
but take away that empathy and killing is nothing more than swatting a
fly.  Since empathy can easily be manipulated, the main propaganda
effort strives to reduce empathy for foes and increate that for the
enemies.

Wojtek