----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Doss" <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] What is you know what ?
>
> The Italians enacted anti-Jewish legislation in 1938,
> in order to please Hitler. For the almost 2-year
> history of fascism prior, there were no such laws.
> There were Jews in the Fascist Party.
>
> They did look down on Ethiopians and other Africans,
> but so did the Brits at the same time. (I'd say race
> was actually more central to the ideology of the
> British Empire than that of Fascist Italy.) They also
> looked back at a mythologized national heritage, but
> ethnicity was not the main thing. In the Doctine of
> Fascism (the text of which I posted a while ago) by Il
> Duce, race just does not appear.
>
> Italy actually had one of the best records in Europe
> during the Holocaust, with 80% of Italian Jews
> surviving. By the way, according to Nazi ideology,
> aren't Italians something near to Untermenschen?
>
> --- Marvin Gandall <marvgandall at videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> I haven't studied these movements. But my impression
>> is the Italian fascists
>> harkened back to ancient Rome in the same way the
>> Nazis recalled the
>> Teutonic tribes and the Spanish the glory that was
>> Castile and Aragon. They
>> similarly defined themselves in terms of their
>> "blood" lineage and thought
>> the non-white races (eg. Ethipians and Moroccans)
>> were inferior. There was
>> Fascist discrimination against Italian Jews, mostly
>> under Nazi pressure -
>> Jews were vitually absent in Spain - but, on balance
>> I agree it would be a
>> stretch to describe the Spanish and Italian
>> fascists, as you would the
>> Nazis, as "fervently" racist with "genocidal
>> impulses".
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chris Doss" <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com>
>> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] What is you know what ?
>>
>>
>> >I agree on all points, except that Fascist
>> nationalism
>> > is not necessarily race-based. Race was not
>> central to
>> > Italian (and Spanish, I think) fascism. It is a
>> Nazi
>> > trope.
>> >
>> > --- Marvin Gandall <marvgandall at videotron.ca>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> My two cents:
>> >>
>> >> 1. A bourgeois democratic government is
>> >> characterized by a number of
>> >> institutions not directly controlled by the state
>> -
>> >> an independent press,
>> >> independent trade unions, independent judiciary,
>> >> independent political
>> >> parties, etc. These institutions may be vigorous
>> or
>> >> docile, but they do not
>> >> directly take their orders from officials of the
>> >> ruling party.
>> >>
>> >> 2. A repressive regime lacks all of the above.
>> There
>> >> are no unions, no
>> >> media, no judges, no political parties which are
>> >> independent of the state.
>> >> In this sense, the PRC is still a repressive
>> regime,
>> >> but one which is
>> >> loosening its controls, or "liberalizing". It
>> >> illustrates that there can be
>> >> differences in the degree of control as between
>> >> repressive states and over
>> >> the life of each state, often depending on how
>> >> beleaguered by internal or
>> >> external forces the regime feels itself to be.
>> >> Right-wing regimes often
>> >> arise out of military coups backed by the
>> >> bourgeoisie against an insurgent
>> >> mass movement from below. Repressive left-wing
>> >> regimes were the product of
>> >> social revolutions which expropriated the
>> >> bourgeoisie.
>> >>
>> >> 3. Fascism is a particular kind of right-wing
>> >> repressive state. It's
>> >> defining characteristics seem to me to be a very
>> >> fervent race-based
>> >> nationalism which makes it susceptible to
>> genocidal
>> >> impulses; an
>> >> expansionist foreign policy; a readiness equal to
>> >> the left to organize and
>> >> mobilize the masses in support of its objectives;
>> >> and a more tightly
>> >> controlled bourgeoisie than in the case of (2)
>> >> above..
>> >>
>> >> Obviously, there are hybrid states which combine
>> >> elements of the above.
>> >> Israel has characteristics common to (3), but so
>> >> long as it has institutions
>> >> which operate independently of the state, it
>> can't
>> >> be called ""fascist", if
>> >> the term is to mean anything more more than an
>> >> epithet. Iran is another
>> >> complex state, which defies easy
>> characterization.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Chris Doss" <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com>
>> >> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:44 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] What is you know what ?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --- Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > There
>> >> >> have been many
>> >> >> non-fascist states that were a lot worse live
>> in
>> >> >> than Mussolini's Italy.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yep. On the Evil Dictatorships scale,
>> Mussolini's
>> >> > Italy was actually on the low end. Maybe
>> >> comparable to
>> >> > contemporary Egypt. Much less repressive than,
>> >> say,
>> >> > modern China. (I am not anti-China, just to
>> make
>> >> that clear.)
>> >> >
>> >> > Nu, zayats, pogodi!
>> >> >
>> >> >
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