You have a pretty bossy heart, J, I think you're great in lots of ways, but just as Yoshie can have the edges if that's where she wants to be, you can keep your ideas of freedom off my libido. Listen to Brian and his point about variation in nonstandard activities, and anyone else will tell you the same thing, if you are stuck doing _the same_ thing all the time, you are likely to get bored, whetherit's nurse costumes, ropes, or the soft-focus naked field sprint.
Now, philosophically, if that's what we want to discuss, you only find the idea of a law you give to yourself alienating because you think of the law as something given to you by someone else. Setting up your own ideas and following them -- raising the building in your head before you put it on the ground -- is what the old man (yes, yes, I know, why should we listen to him, what did he know about anything) said distinguished the architect from the bee. It's called self-determined imaginative creativity. I guess I think that will do as an account of freedom I can live with.
Your own idea of freedom, which seems to be lack of interference by anything, including your own mind, is merely negative -- Hobbes and Locke might applaud it. I don't diminish the importance of such freedom, but really don't think it's enough. It leaves the poor and the rich equally free to sleep under bridges and beg in the streets. And I don't see how leaving the mind out of sex is supposed to make it more liberating.
--- joanna <123hop at comcast.net> wrote:
> andie nachgeborenen wrote:
>
> >A very non-Marxist attitude.
> >
> Who cares? Did Marx define "Marxism" and the meaning
> of freedom forever?
>
> > In the tradition that
> >comes from Rousseau through Kant and Hegel to Marx,
> >freedom, "real" freedom Marx calls it, is obedience
> to
> >the law one has give oneself.
> >
> Freud would laugh. To be your own priest is still to
> need a priest. To
> write your own script is still to need a script.
>
> > (He uses the expression
> >on multiple occasions.) It is, to use your
> >terminology, writing your own script and following
> it.
> >
> Why a script? You see, from where I sit this is real
> prudery disguised
> as licentiousness.
>
> Why can we not trust the body (and heart and soul)
> to ask for what is
> needed when it is needed. Why is a script needed?
> Why can there not be a
> sexual "conversation" between two people - a meeting
> of bodies and
> desire, within which we spontaneously discover who
> and how we are as
> lovers, in this particular moment?
>
> Why a script? How is "law" applicable at all to the
> unique circumstance
> of the erotic moment?
>
> Joanna
>
>
> >
> >
> >--- joanna <123hop at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>>My own experience is that leftists hate on kinky
> >>>
> >>>
> >>BDSM sex ALL the
> >>
> >>
> >>>time, maybe even more than honkie america. I've
> >>>
> >>>
> >>gotten in so many
> >>
> >>
> >>>arguments about this with radicals over the
> years.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> It's so strange.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Why do so many leftos have mean things to say
> >>>
> >>>
> >>about BDSM? Can someone
> >>
> >>
> >>>on this list make whatever argument there is to
> >>>
> >>>
> >>make, about BDSM being
> >>
> >>
> >>>bad or fundamentally oppressive or whatever? I
> >>>
> >>>
> >>just can't imagine
> >>
> >>
> >>>what intellectual content there could be to any
> >>>
> >>>
> >>such assertion.
> >>
> >>
> >>As the resident prude, here goes. I have no
> problem
> >>with whatever
> >>happens between consenting adults. The only thing
> I
> >>have taken issue
> >>with is the idea that fetishes are a sign of
> sexual
> >>freedom; they are,
> >>to me, the very opposite. Freedom is not scripted.
> >>
> >>Joanna
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>___________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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> >
>
>
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