[lbo-talk] Pleasure, Pain and All That Jazz

John Thornton jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net
Tue Jan 9 21:03:39 PST 2007


Charles Brown wrote:
>> Also props to Andie. I never have imagined that me, Mengele and
>> Torqemada would ever -- could ever -- end up together in the same sentence. [Brian]
>>
>> But apparently you weren't surprised when Andie wrote "Probably most people
>> who are not knowledgeable about BDSM don't grasp this
>> distinction. They hear "sadist" and they think of Dr. Mengele or Torquemada,
>> not Brian Dauth.'
>>
>> This is Charles point exactly. I don't know if Charles has a difficult time
>> making this distinction himself but it appears he does. [JT]
>>
>> ^^^^
>> CB; Hey, guys, don't be too sure Charles doesn't understand you better than
>> you understand yourselves.
>>
>> Neither of you can be sure that many "nice" sadists wouldn't feel pleasure
>> even if the person upon whom they inflicting pain did _not_ consent. Brian,
>> what's your proof that a sadist in your club who broke the rule requiring
>> consent from the masochist wouldn't also enjoy inflicting pain on someone
>> who didn't consent ? Have you done an experiment ?
>> Or what's your proof that Mengele wouldn't enjoy inflicting pain on someone
>> who consented to it, making him like you in that regard ? :>)
>>
>> Do you have a difficult time grasping all that ? :>)
My nice next door neighbor who engages purely in vanilla sex with his wife may also feel pleasure inflicting pain on persons who did not consent. So what? You are assuming that for some reason a person who enjoys inflicting consensual discomfort during sex play is more likely than a person who does not do so to feel pleasure inflicting that on a non-willing participant. There is no good reason to hold this believe that I am aware of.

If you look at the few individuals who have been caught abducting people and torturing them were they people who otherwise engaged primarily in vanilla sex or were they BDSM practitioners? Is the sample of such people large enough and well documented enough to draw any conclusion from? My feeling is there is no correlation between the BDSM and such horrific practices but since I cannot stand reading sensational reports about such crimes I know little about these types of criminals. If you want to infer that a correlation exists between the two behaviours you need to offer some proof beyond, "It sounds reasonable to me."

While I noted that there was little hostility to BDSM on the list but some of the support is kind of half-assed. Woj's comment about his opposition to denouncing the practice while not condoning the practice itself is an example. I can see where Brian would get the feeling that there is little support for BDSM on this list. While I'm not surprised I am a bit disappointed that there is tepid opposition based on such odd ideas and less than vigorous support except from just a few.

The idea that BDSM is somehow a sexual straight-jacket when compared to other sex practices strikes me as very odd as does the idea that the consent involved is anything like the coerced consent of wage laborers. These both seem like straining for a reason to oppose BDSM when no other reason can be found.

Chuck's comment that "I think that kinksters are more sexually liberated and enjoy more freedom than people who just muck along." is equally wrong. There is no reason to believe that following one or the other or any other sexual preference is more liberating and/or enjoyable than any other. Sex is what you make of it. There is no reason to imagine that the percentage of unliberated vanilla sex practitioners is higher than the percentage of unliberated B&D practitioners.

I don't want to put word's in Woj's mouth but when he wrote "this is precisely what I find most frightening and uncomfortable." I was under the impression he was stating this as a personal expression in that he did not like the sensation of being immobilized himself, not that he found any of the described ideas frightening and uncomfortable when being practiced by others. He'll have to tell you himself if that was his intention but that was how I read it.

John Thornton



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